July 24, 2010 | by Goldenstar
We’ve seen several screenshots from Massively and Mordor or Bust showing that faction mounts are available (for now anyway) in the Beta Store. Our question this week is asking you what you think about this situation should it go live.
Should faction mounts allowed to be purchased in the LOTRO Store?
Total Voters: 314
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Goldenstar plays a minstrel as her main and enjoys the small things in LOTRO like festivals, parties, & clothing. In her spare time, she will join in fellowships to root out evil from Middle-earth.
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[...] you’re really that interested you can find some of the uproar over the cash shop on fansites/blogs as well. Take a look at these and let me know if you think I was right when I said that they [...]
[...] you’re really that interested you can find some of the uproar over the cash shop on fansites/blogs as well. Take a look at these and let me know if you think I was right when I said that they [...]
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July 24, 2010 at 11:41 am
I choose other. I do not care how others get their mounts. I’ll get mine the old-fashioned way.
July 24, 2010 at 11:44 am
No no no no!
Faction rewards should NOT be sold in the store. I’m fine with content packs, convenience items (shared storage, wardrobe) and other similar things… but items in general is very touchy. Rewards should NEVER be sold. It just cheapens the whole reward and makes it worthless.
Why work towards something when it can just be bought in the store? The work you put in for that reward just becomes meaningless when someone else just paid a few dollars and got it for free. It’s not longer something you can proudly show off.
July 24, 2010 at 11:49 am
Only if the required faction is reached. They are, after all, called faction mounts for a purpose. Buying your way to kindred should also not be possible.(not that you can’t do it by buying rep itmes if you are willing to spend the money on the AH)
If going to the shop then saves you spending 5g for an Annuminas horse or grinding the 20 golden leaves or stars for the Elves, that’s ok by me.
July 24, 2010 at 11:49 am
Exactly. It would be something else when you could buy a slower, look-a-like horse in the store. (what you can get when you only are Ally with that specific faction). The kindred-one should be kept special as GAME-reward not money-reward.
July 24, 2010 at 12:18 pm
I’m eh on allowing them to be sold if you have the faction points; in general, I prefer that in-game gold is worth in-game money, and that I doing feel like I ought to be spending out of game money on my pretties; but then again, I like the game and am happy to have Turbine feel it’s profitable enough to keep putting approrpriate effort in.
That said, the mounts don’t bother me *nearly* as much as the dyes, oils, traps, and other *player-crafted* items I saw on the beta screenshots. Way to cheapen the already-not-amazingly-powerful crafting mechanic, guys…. I *like* crafting. If you’re worried about crafting being inefficient and things not being offered on the AH, give me a way to check what’s for sale while I’m at the workbench/forge/oven…
July 24, 2010 at 12:25 pm
I think Turbine should sell reputation levels (or items) in the store and only allow people to buy faction mounts in the store if they have rep. Then if someone wants to spend real $ to have a faction horse they can also spend real $ to have kindred with that faction.
July 24, 2010 at 12:37 pm
I don’t see why they shouldn’t be in the Store since in all reality they are simply a cosmetic item.
As long as the mount does not give any bonus other than the movement increase you get from riding it then I dont see why the should not be in the store.
I think they should be priced to make it still worth doing the faction rep in game if you want to save the money. I mean if there $1 then no one will ever do the rep grind obviously so they should either make rep gain better or charge more for the mounts.
But I think as long as it does not give you any other benefit other than being a different skin for your horse then that’s exactly the sort of thing they should sell, Better they sale that kind of thing than them selling gear.
Its really no different to them selling any cosmetic item in fact its probably even better because you can get the mount without paying if you really want but I can almost guarantee that there will be some cosmetic items that will not be able to gained any other way that to pay for them.
July 24, 2010 at 1:44 pm
It is different because faction mounts are a reward. Most people feel that you should have to earn the reward before being able to get the reward. Trophies from bosses, rep rewards, and so on IF they are sold in the store at all should require the player to have succeeded at the task at hand to be eligible to purchase the reward. For example, if you have run turtle 8 million times, but can’t get nanu to drop, then sure, buy it from the store. I have no qualms there. But nanu shouldn’t be available for purchase by some level 22 person who never ran turtle before. Earn the reward/trophy, then if you don’t win it, but you’ve done the instance/boss/rep level you would need to do in order to get it in the game, then you could buy it. But not before that.
To say better they sell mounts than gear defeats the purpose entirely. Either thing available without the player having to meet requirements causes a buy to win atmosphere instead of a play to buy. The goal of the lotro store is and should continue to be win to buy/play to buy, not buy to win.
July 24, 2010 at 3:10 pm
I agree wholeheartedly agree. Apart from the RP and Lore justifications which are enough for me (and also why its pretty hard to keep your noses out of other peoples business), ‘winning’ is different for all people. For me its pride in hard to get cosmetics and titles, and for others is completing raids etc. In this scenario my ‘win’ is being sold for cash only, I’ll still have my pride in doing it, but I’d be lying if I said it wasn’t diminished by any old level 35 buying it because they have a better RL job.
Roll on Rohan, Maeras for sale anyone? “Gandalf was granted his unwillingly by the king, but all you need is $35 for your very own Shadowfax!”
July 26, 2010 at 4:56 pm
Well said.
July 24, 2010 at 3:18 pm
Actually, the rep mounts do have an advantage over standard mounts: they have a higher health value. Perhaps it’s just a cosmetic difference after you have your first reputation mount, but the first reputation mount has a game advantage.
July 24, 2010 at 12:44 pm
The more information I see from the beta, the more Turbine can rest assured they will get no more money or support from me. I’m a multi-account households, and they won’t be continued past this point.
July 24, 2010 at 12:58 pm
I was originally totally opposed to this idea, but the more I think about it the more I’m coming around to it. This is all about making the grind an option not a requirement. Now maybe if they keep putting things in that are desirable and require reputation (crafting for example) you won’t be grinding rep JUST for a horse.
@Fandraen From what I saw on the store, they’re not the top tier crafting items but the non-crit versions. At least that’s what Sapience clarified on the crafting tools – http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?&postid=4834690#post4834690. As long as there are still certain things you need to craft I’m fine with being able to buy lower tier/quality stuff in the store. It gives me another option, crafted, AH, barter, and now the store.
July 27, 2010 at 8:52 am
That still seriously diminishes crafters by making only your critted items worth anything. I’ve *already* been feeling like crafting has been seriously knocked lately at the top tier, with crafted long-term items like weapons and armor not worth bothering with even critted; forcing me to lose what little money-making potential was available from crafting to begin with, and removing the uniqueness of the short-term crafted items like potions, oils, and food, really makes me as a crafter feel that I’m that much less useful. And “oh, it’s useful if you have a crit” is a *pain*– it means I can’t plan my inventory use predictably, so instead of making good items and better items, I’m making useful items and junk items. It’s like farming for flowers for dye: I never do it, because so much of what I’m making just gets thrown out/sold as vendor trash, and it’s not worth my time.
I *already* don’t craft for others outside of my kin much because no one seems to buy long-term crafted things from the AH often enough for the two-day timer to be worthwhile. Adding short-term stuff to that list means that crafting is personal-utility only, with one hell of a grind, and that sucks.
July 24, 2010 at 1:31 pm
If you notice, the mounts are currently priced quite high.. roughly $22 is what someone said it worked out to (assuming those screenshot prices stay the same) which is fine by me because if someone really wants to pay for that convenience, the price is steep which can provide incentive to “earn” it like the rest of us. But honestly, this is a PvE game — if someone else wants to pay $22 for a custom horse cosmetic texture, it doesn’t affect my game whatsoever. I still make my own choices how I play and pay and that’s all that matters. If more players worried about themselves and kept their noses out of everyone else’s business, we’d all get along better.
July 24, 2010 at 7:46 pm
Turbine has to make their money somehow, and as long as the mounts remain obtainable the old way, it works for me.
July 25, 2010 at 12:42 am
I still don’t want to see faction mounts in the store, even if you do have the rep. I know they don’t give any real advantage, but it is simply not right for someone to be riding around the shire on a Lothlorian or Mirkwood horse.
July 25, 2010 at 1:45 am
I’ve got a bunch of those faction rep mounts on my main (all except the Mirkwood one, and I’m ally there). And I’m working for rep on my alts.
That’s a whole bunch of effort, I’m sure you’ll admit.
To find that Turbine is just going to sell the same mounts on the store – a much easier way to get them – well it makes me feel like all that effort was just wasted. That I was a complete idiot to invest that time in the game. Perhaps I was.
Make people feel like fools for having played your game? Way to go, Turbine. Way to go.
July 26, 2010 at 2:42 pm
And I’m working for rep on my alts.
Perhaps take a step back and realize it’s a GAME? People put waaaay too much emphasis on how much you “work” in these things.
To find that Turbine is just going to sell the same mounts on the store – a much easier way to get them – well it makes me feel like all that effort was just wasted. [emphasis mine]
Obviously you value your “effort” and “work” in the game as some sort of achievement, correct? And the mount is the visible way to show off to others that you “earned” that achievement, correct? Now reverse that and consider that maybe people who would rather just buy the mounts simply want to “get” them to have yet another trophy collecting dust, and don’t put the value on “achieving” them.
As I said earlier, this is a PvE game. If some new guy makes an account and pays $22 for a faction mount that you and I had to “earn” the hard way, does that affect our game whatsoever? It doesn’t affect mine. In fact, I would never know he paid cash for the mount unless he tells me. So, who cares? Play how you want, and soon, pay how you want. Nothing really changes in the long run, except in your mind.
July 26, 2010 at 4:35 pm
I have to concur with wilifro on this one. I only have the Mirkwood horse on a few of my alts, and running Death from below and picking up a few badges is fairly easy.
However, I am fine if they sell the horse on the site I just think you to have the appropriate faction to get it. If I do all the “work” farming rep in Evendim is “work” to get a mount. It means something to me, because I know the effort it takes to get it. It is a badge of honor for the effort put in. Sure it is cosmetic and does not truely affect game play in anyway. So I understand that if someone else buys the horse it does not affect my game play, but it does affect me. It eliminates the “reward” aspect of the item. Now, Scott, you may play for competely different reasons than me, I like the sense of accomplishment I get for completing tasks. That is a primary motivating factor in why I play. It is fun to run an instance a number of times to get the RilMir or to kill wargs to increase my determination… I enjoy the journey, if the destination is removed or minimized such that anyone with $10 can have it completely takes away the incentive and enjoyment of the journey for me. Now you may feel otherwise, which is your right. Just understand that not everyone plays the game for the same reason and that is part of what make the game so great.
Let them have purchaseable horses in store, just have them be different than the faction horses. That to me is a win-win.
July 25, 2010 at 8:25 am
If Turbine sold the faction horses in their store I’d be completely ticked off!! There are some things we need to work for and be proud of displaying in the game. I love all my mounts because I worked for them. Allowing others to just purchase them without really earning them is a bit belittling to those who spent hours grinding to get them.
July 26, 2010 at 2:03 pm
I ground my butt off to get the Galadhrim mount. Of course, by the time I had it, everyone else had been running around with them for six months, so it was nothing brag-able. I got my other faction mounts (Bree, Lossoth, etc.) essentially by grinding grey mobs to farm faction items.
I’m not proud of getting any of those horses. I like having them, sure. But they don’t represent an achievement for me.
So from that perspective, my response to selling faction horses is: “Who cares?” Sell them for $15-$20, and make some money off those who aren’t patient enough to do all the lame grinding I did.
July 26, 2010 at 6:45 pm
@ Scott.
Try this argument. A heavier example than poopy game mounts, but the same problem (IMO).
Imagine this. You go to college. You work hard for three years, get good grades, get the degree. You enjoyed yourself, made friends, learnt more than you were taught. Etc. All that good stuff. Maybe you do it over again in graduate school.
Then you find your Alma Mater, good ole Hobbiton U, is now doing same degree in just two years. Much less work to get through. Everyone in the Shire knows that the students get “A”s for just turning up at class, if they’re sober. And that the Dean has awarded the degree – the exact same title, Advanced Pie-ology – to the kids of rich donors. Kids who never made a descent pie crust in class. Not one.
Well;
1) These changes don’t affect the fun you had when earning your degree.
2) They don’t take away what you learned.
3) They don’t affect what you are doing now with your qualification.
4) Many people won’t even know about the changes.
So; do you have no right to feel your reward – the degree – has been devalued? Should you care?
Hmm. I guess that most people would feel that something valuable that they had worked for has now been undermined. In fact, deliberately thrown away by people who had care of it. .
Same core issue, I think. But obviously, a game is just trivia in the end. Compared with a degree in Pie-ology anyway.
@Stormwalz
“Who cares?”. Well, me! And looking the voting, then so do most people. By a constitution-changing margin.
@Dreadhead
Agreed on your win-win. Yes. Sensible.
July 27, 2010 at 5:16 am
As long as the faction stuff can be bought on the AH, I consider it fair game. Everything that can be bought with ingame money is ok (for me) to buy with points. But I guess some people would be really ticked off, if you can buy the Ettenmoors horse (that requires rank idunno) without having the rank. Mirkwood horse was bad enough for those poor pvpers. But if it is just a matter of buying a bunch of tombraiders sashes or whatnot on the AH to get the rep, then I really don’t care. For me this is a prime example of a convenience item.
July 27, 2010 at 3:00 pm
This poll is telling. The vast majority of players polled don’t want horses purchaseable, or if so only if the player has the faction. Hopefully, turbine takes note.
July 27, 2010 at 4:24 pm
Perhaps Turbine could require faction rep for the horses, but at the Friend (or Ally) level. A player would have to get to that particular area and do some work, but would not have to grind all the way up to Kindred.
Ultimately, I think Turbine will have to find a good balance point. Mounts could be a huge revenue maker for them (as we just saw with the recent WoW mount) and that will be good for all of us – but I think they should do something to mitigate the dislike of the idea from a large portion of the current player base.
July 27, 2010 at 6:01 pm
Wilifro – You present a false analogy (i.e. inaccurate comparison) and fail in your arguments about your analogy. Primarily, in numbers 3 & 4. The value of a college degree (and thus your earning potential) is based in part on the reputation of the college and the course structure that they offer. Therefore, a change at Hobbiton U that makes the degree a joke would negatively impact the earning potential of everyone who had earned that degree in the past. Now given the potential change to obtaining faction mounts: Will the functionality of your horse change? Will the look change? Will other people buying the mount with cash change your mount in any way?
Also, for those making the “work” argument. Remember, anyone buying a faction mount in the F2P store has worked for it too. They simply chose to work in real life to earn dollars to buy it and you chose to work in ME to buy it. If someone wants to spend dollars on a mount, then I say let them. The more money Turbine makes, then the more that is available to invest into the game and the happier I become.
I only wish Turbine was planning on selling reputation items in the store as well (and then forcing faction mount buyers to earn kindred, but you can read my post above or on the LotRO forums for more on that view).
July 29, 2010 at 11:59 am
I can’t help but notice your faulty logic in your work analogy. We have no idea if people in realy life had to work for their money. Some do, some don’t. Some money is inherited, some money is gifted. Some people just have alot more than others. If these factors come to play in influencing the game. The game suffers. Furthermore and even more problematic is the slippery slope of your argument. If we start considering real life work = to in game work, why not just sell radiance gear? Or Symbols of Celembridor? Because people worked for it, they earned enough money to buy em. To me that logic path if followed to its end will fundamentally change the game to a point where no one runs instances anymore, because you can just buy the loot.
One great aspect of the game is that it puts everyone on par, no one has an intial advantage over another due to what their real world bank account looks like. The only aspect of real life is the amount of time one has to play, and there is nothing that can be done or should be done about that.
July 29, 2010 at 4:49 pm
Dreadhed – As Scott puts it so succinctly below, time = money. I don’t care how much time or money somebody else has, nor do I care how they use it when it comes to an MMO. I do believe that I should be able to choose how I would like to spend my own resources when it comes to playing my MMO. Right now, I have no money and a small amount of time so I guess I’m out of luck regardless, but someday that will change and flexibility/choice is a good thing.
July 29, 2010 at 7:23 pm
Bulegar. I don’t dispute that time = money. But we are not talking about the real world. We are talking about a game and the rules of that game. Time does not equal money in chess, or checkers or really any game I can think of.
The departure from the rules of reality is why we enjoy running around as a hobbit burglar, or a Elven Lore master… Please lets not bring the time = money argument into an MMORPG. Especially when its logical end is fundamentally change the game from one where people play the game to level and aquire the best gear to one where those who have more money in real life just buy everything they want. That to me would ruin the game. Now that is just my opinnion, and your entitled to your own.
July 29, 2010 at 3:43 pm
@Wilfro (and the others): Believe me, I totally understand *why* people get up in arms at a perceived “devaluation” of something we feel we earned. With particular respect to MMO’s, half the time that is my gut reaction as well, but taking a step back from it, nothing changes *for me.* I’m the type who would rather set a goal for myself (most recently, getting kindred with Malledhrim and the Smoky Black Horse mount) and achieving it myself. But I’ve also been around the block enough to know that was strictly my choice, and mine alone, and it has no bearing on any of the other thousands of LOTRO players, nor does anything they do have an affect on me or my gameplay.
Just because my grandpa had to walk uphill, both ways, barefoot in the snow does not mean I have to. Conversely, if I want to “progress” myself, I have to move beyond that feeling when (figuratively speaking) I become the grandfather and the young whippersnapper kids (get off my lawn!) just get to buy their mounts. Otherwise I am now perpetuating that same cycle that inhibits progress.
The new payment model offers players choice. I’m in favor of that. Putting mounts in the shop, again offers a choice. They’re not removing my ability to quest or whatever if I set that as a goal for myself. Other players might want to simply spend their cash on a mount to eliminate the time spent; even in a virtual world, time = money. For that matter, it’s entirely possible I might choose to simply buy one for an alt rather than repeating the kindred grind, because I can tell you already I will most certainly be buying either virtue points directly or the items that cut the deed grind in half for my alts. Deeds are too grindy as it is, and they keep adding more, and rather than actually fixing the problem, they’re selling bandaids for cash. I’ll take what I can get though because I don’t think I can stand re-grinding that stuff.
Now I will say that my personal preference is to still require the actual reputation — after all they are called “faction mounts” for a reason — then players have a choice of paying gold (which some players have a problem earning/saving, plus the gold cap on free and premium accounts) or paying points in the shop. That way the reputation requirement is still met, just the method of payment may be in question, and all us old farts can happily sit on our porches shaking our heads at the RMT whippersnappers.
July 30, 2010 at 5:38 pm
I guess this discussion isn’t going to find an uber argument to rule them all. Even if we spend another six months of essay-writing. (C’mon guys, we can do it.) Goldenstar and Merric, you’re going to have to mark the mid-terms.
Can’t resist one last parting shot, before I get back to grinding rep in Mirkwood. (Want to earn that faction Pony in-game, before they go on sale in the Ost Galadh Discount Warehouse.)
So then, let’s see. Time=money? Hmm.
Well, I’d really like to have climbed Mt. Everest before I die. But doing that would take a lot of time. I’d need time to get fit, time to learn to climb, time to practice on smaller mountains, time on harder slopes. All that boring effort. But probably, that’s all that really stands in the way. Time and determination. Well, I ain’t got that kind of time. Sigh.
But, wait; time=money! So, obviously I should just be able to buy the right to say I’ve climbed Everest. (From the Sherpas I guess?). Cuts out all that tedium. Sherpas won’t sell? Well, just give ‘em money till I’m kin with them. They still won’t sell? What’s wrong with them? They think that I should have worked my way to the summit? But climbing’s just a sport, a game. I should be allowed – I demand! – to exercise My Right To Choose how to play this ‘climb big mountains’ game any way I like.
Those stoopid Sherpas are standing in the way of progress: they will go the way of the Yeti. Other people may have had to do Everest the old way by actually climbing the thing (Scott’s grandpa did it barefoot both ways), but real soon there will be an iPhone app that’s the exact moral equivalent. (You can also get K2 and Kanchenjunga for 50 cents each, if you get the bundle). That’s progress, so deal with it old dudes. Time for your nap now…
Nah. It don’t work like that.
Games are rule sets. Miniature worlds, where you can gain, or lose, some ‘mark of achievement’. Sell those achievements, and you ain’t got a game, you’ve got a shopping opportunity. Fun, maybe, but not a game anymore. If you can buy achievement, it ain’t achievement.
August 2, 2010 at 1:00 pm
Put ‘em up for sale once they’ve been attainable for 6 months.
I get the ego stroke of seeing it rarely used by other players during that first 6 months the skin is released.
After a half-year, 10 other folks are now sending in $10 each to gain access to that design.
Turbine puts part of the profit towards an artist/programmer who designs a new skin that I again get to obtain via faction, six months before the skin goes up for sale for $.
Lather, rinse, repeat, and I get the pleasure of still showing I’m a heavy, active gamer while those who P2P help support my desire for novelty.